Anne Therese Gennari
Anne Therese Gennari shifts the narrative on climate change, cultivating radical optimism as a healing practice. She is a speaker, educator, and author of The Climate Optimist Handbook. Find her at www.theclimateoptimist.com.
Transcript
Anne Therese Gennari:
So for me, it really starts with, again, returning home and tending to ourselves in the same way we would tend to our families and our communities. And knowing that when I am my most balanced, strongest, happiest self, I can make the most impact in the world.
Ted Roosevelt V:
Welcome to Good Citizen, a podcast from the Roosevelt Presidential Library. I'm Ted Roosevelt. Today's guest is the Climate Optimist, Anne Therese Gennari. She's a speaker, educator and author who has helped shift the narrative on climate change. Her approach is unlike any I've encountered before and potentially much more powerful. We don't just talk about the small changes we can make, but instead the spiritual leveling up that she believes is necessary to be able to face climate change head -on. It's an interesting conversation filled with optimism and hope, and I think you're going to enjoy it as much as I did.
Well, thank you very much for joining us today. I really appreciate you taking the time.
Anne Therese Gennari:
I'm so honored to be here. So thank you for reaching out.
Ted Roosevelt V:
I want to start at the beginning of your journey. It sounds like from what I've learned about you that you went through a relatively similar process that many people do when they start looking at climate change, which is sort of a sense of despair and then an anger came from that. Is that the right starting place for you? How did you get into climate and where did you sort of find yourself?
Anne Therese Gennari:
That's a great starting place. I first learned about climate change when I was about 14, 15 years old, watching The Inconvenient Truth by Al Gore and, naive as I was a teenager, I thought, oh my goodness, the world is going to come to a stop and everyone's going to come together and figure this out. And I was just sort of expecting monumental changes and headlines and this drastic global movement. And when nothing of that happened-- in fact, everything went on as normal: my parents didn't talk about it, my friends didn't talk about it, I was like, wait a second. We just learned about this existential crisis and we're not doing anything. That was mind blowing to me. And I think looking back, the starting point of my long lived climate anxiety, but I did spend a big part of my younger years very torn and feeling out of place in the world and what I was supposed to do.
Ted Roosevelt V:
I'm curious about what happened, the sort of transition from, okay, this is creating a lot of anxiety in my life. I'm not able to do anything with this anxiety. People aren't responding to my anxiety in a positive way. What happened in that moment for your life?
Anne Therese Gennari:
The answer is honestly a fairly spiritual experience because I was in my early twenties and just like you explained was trying to almost from a shameful perspective, get people to act and care more and was coming at it from a very sort of harmful way just to myself, but also to the people around me of like, we need to do this or else. And then I had this moment after a dinner conversation with my brother where once again I had failed to spark the necessary will and action in the people I love the most to really wanting to change their lives. And so I ended up in my parents' guest room on the floor crying hysterically in a very different way that I had cried before being a teenage girl and boys and everything, but this was different. It was sort of grief and pain from the entire world that I had just been bottling up inside.
And so I surrendered to that moment. I cried for a long time and a message came through to me and it was, you're here to do this work, but you've got to change your ways. You've got to be an optimist. You have to bring light to people's lives and really shed light onto this path forward. And so that was the narrative shift for me. And when I realized that there was so much to both gain and explore in this world, it wasn't just about pointing fingers and removing things that we loved and feeling guilty about all the pain, it was about how can we actually create the world that's better.
Ted Roosevelt V:
I'm imagining you lying on the floor of your bedroom and all of a sudden you're like, oh, I'm approaching this problem the wrong way. What then?
Anne Therese Gennari:
What then was that I took the wrong way forward. And so I learned about what it means to carry sort of toxic positivity, which is this, I'm going to close my eyes to everything that's bad and just pray that things are working out and I'm going to walk on pink clouds and this is my optimism and I'm going to spread that to others. And to an extent it worked. But then I had those moments when I would just kind of freak out in the car and cry for no reason and I still had all that anxiety that I was holding onto. Being angry is an empowering thing. If we channel that anger for good, if we take it from the head where we usually get stuck and embody it and say, okay, well anger just means that it's something with this situation that I don't agree with.
Now what can I do to make a difference? But it was that wanting the world to be perfect and not accepting that it wasn't, that's where the disconnect was for me. And so what I learned the hard way was that to be a radical optimist, you have to practice optimism.
You have to create and nurture that optimism from within you. And that means reckoning with the fact that not everything is great. We are actually heading in the wrong direction still, but there are so many possibilities and so many opportunities for change right now. And so as an optimist, I'm choosing to spend my energy there while also tending to the sides of myself, who needs nurturing, who needs care, who needs to grieve the fact that we are losing natural habitat and we are killing ecosystems. And that's just a part of the reality we're facing, but it doesn't mean that we should give up. And that's what a radical optimist does. It shows up and it creates change wherever she or he can.
Ted Roosevelt V:
And I think that sort of is at the core of the climate challenge is tension between the public good versus the private action. And the only way to really get significant change, it has to be systemic, it has to be broad, it has to be global. And if you're doing it alone or you feel like you're alone, it's a really lonely place. When you're going to bear the cost, your kids are going to bear the cost, everybody's going to bear the cost. How does optimism solve that problem for you?
Anne Therese Gennari:
You're getting to the core of everything because that's really where the issues lie is first of all, there is this disconnect of yes, I can try in my life, but it's not going to add to the systemic change. First of all, that's not true. By saying yes to activating change in your life, in your world, you first of all become a different person. You embody a different energy, you're going to show up differently in conversations with people. And what you believe is possible is going to shift because you see in your own life that change is possible. And right now the biggest challenge we stand for is how do we not just accept change, but embrace change? And so when you start changing your own life and recognize, wow, not only can we do things differently, but it's for the better. My life is better now.
It's healthier, it's cheaper, because I don't have to pay for gas. All these different things that climate solutions actually add to the table will only open you up to spur that change further in society around you by doing what you can and changing your world that will ripple effect to the people around you. And you will automatically because for social creatures, nudge them to also look into like, okay, what could that look like in my life? And that's how norms shift and we start to shift culture and it's a really powerful thing. Secondly, which it's something that I wish we were talking more about, is this whole notion that we need to sacrifice and it's our responsibility to do the right thing. We have to save the world for future generations. And it's a very distant approach to the topic, but it's also very disempowering because as species and to the simplest neuroscience and psychology, when we have to sacrifice something, there's a no-go response in our brains who says, I don't want to participate in this. Why would I sacrifice? But what if we are not here to sacrifice? What if we're here to gain? And maybe it's not a responsibility, but an opportunity.
Ted Roosevelt V:
You mentioned the ripple effect and the power of the ripple effect. And it reminds me of the pay-as-you-throw program in California where state officials had initially designed a program where you had to pay more for a trash bin than for a recycling bin and for a composting bin. And the thought was that the economic incentives were going to drive behavior, that people would want to pay less for a smaller trash bin. And what they discovered was the thing that actually changed behavior were not the economic incentives, it was the virtue signaling of people leaving their trash cans in front of their house and nobody wanted to have the big rubbish bin and the small recycling bin when their neighbor had the big recycling bin and the small rubbish bin. So people were much more driven by their relationship to their neighbors than they were even by economic incentives.
Anne Therese Gennari:
Well, I love it. And I think that's where people at first feel disempowered. Like, why should I care? All of my neighbors don't care. Why should I bring my tote bag to the store when everyone else is going to just reach for the plastic bag or whatever it is. And I think many people who first attempt to becoming more conscious and making conscious choices and changes in their lives reach that point of overwhelm. And it's like hitting a wall in the sense where people say, I have such a small fish in a huge ocean. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to shift. And they give up too early because similarly, as people do whatever everyone else is doing and it gets stuck in old rhythms and all routines, as soon as more people start adding new spices to that mix, it will shift. And the sooner we can all claim our own agency and empower ourselves in that agency and say, I'm going to do what I can, not only will I do what I can, but I'm going to feel excited about it because I'm activating the changes that I know are possible. It will ripple effect like rings in the water.
Ted Roosevelt V:
You're from Sweden, but you live in the United States now. And one of the sort of cultural truisms about the United States, and I think less so Sweden, but correct me if I'm wrong, is that consumerism really drives everything. The idea that you are winning if you have more is kind of key to what it is to live in America and you're losing if you have less. And I've felt for a while now that that cultural shift needs to take place that more is not leading to greater happiness and less doesn't lead to less. It can actually lead to more and a more fulfilling life. Did you sense that when you came to the United States, was that a stark cultural difference for you from Sweden or is that sort of more of the human condition?
Anne Therese Gennari:
I think it is more of the human condition, although it is definitely, as with everything else, exponentially bigger in the United States. So that's not untrue. What you tended to, of more---what is more? Can we redefine "more" and if we're adding more stuff to our lives and it's actually taking away from our ability to be present and our ability to spend time---conscious, present time with the people we love, are we getting more, or are we getting less? For me, my message is also much about, although we have an urgent need to act and we need to sort of speed up and accelerate towards climate solutions, we also have to slow down and start going inwards and give ourselves space to rethink because we live in a world that in a society it's just filled with information and opinions and thoughts and ideas and contents about how we should think and what we should think about and what we should care about. And if we never create space to just exist, there will never be a chance for those sort of deeper feelings and emotions and thoughts to come through that want to guide you in a different direction. And so for me right now, a part of the revoution is claiming our inner peace and creating space for that slowness to really start to question, what do we want? What is more? What is valuable, what is worth striving for as we move forward?
Ted Roosevelt V:
So let's move into the practical of this a little bit more. What are things that have resonated with you in terms of changes in your life that you feel like have a ripple effect or create greater inner peace for you?
Anne Therese Gennari:
Something I love to bring up is composting, not only because by separating your food waste from your regular trash, my husband's favorite is that it makes the trash smell less. So it's just such a win. You don't have to empty the trash every day because it doesn't smell. But not only are you removing methane production in landfills, which happens when food enter a landfill, not only are you removing that damage, but you're actually contributing to the richness of soil and helping soil regain life and bounce back and creating a really strong ally in our fight against climate change. And so for me, when I talk about maximizing your footprint instead of just reducing your negative footprint, how can you maximize your positive footprint and recognize that you are not the evil on earth, you are here to make good happen and to be a beautiful piece of the ecosystem. I think composting for me is such a great example of that because you are really reinserting yourself into the cycle of life.
Ted Roosevelt V:
I will say that my family's--- we compost. You see how much food waste there is in your life as well. And maybe that sort of inspires some additional changes just in terms of how much food you are producing or making at home. And then actually disposing of it gives you a greater sense of it than when it's separated out, when you can see, oh my God, there's this reasonably large compost bin here that's happening. How do you approach your diet in terms of what you are consuming?
Anne Therese Gennari:
I have been on a majority plant-based diet for the majority of a decade, and I love and thrive on it. I don't like to put a title on myself. And so depending on the situation, sometimes I have a little cheese or an egg or locally produced meat even on occasion or fish. But I really try to stay on as much as I can on a plant-based diet because I know it's better for the planet and I know it's better for me ultimately. But I also have learned on my journey that nothing is black and white. And so that angry vegan in me that used to be the one who's pointing fingers and shaming people at parties, she has learned that there's some more to it that meets the eye. And sometimes conscious grazing of animals is actually good for the soil and for the land. And so there's so many aspects to it. And I think again, staying in a state of curiosity and wanting to learn new things will help us continue to make good conscious choices instead of just putting us in a box and saying, I'm never going to eat meat again or I'm never going to do this. But with that said, we definitely need to cut down on how much meat we consume.
Ted Roosevelt V:
I'm curious about how you think about the politics of climate change and the politics in this country around climate change.
Anne Therese Gennari:
Oh, it's a disaster. So it's like I almost wish that we didn't rely so much on politics, but I know we do. The day we can all come together and realize we all want a world to live in and let's work on that together, we have won the entire game. But for some reason we feel so far away from that right now. But I'm hoping that is going to turn. And I think we have to also recognize that there is so much power in politics and not just the election year every four years, but the fact that we can participate in local politics and push our agendas in our communities around us and get active in politics even though we're not a politician and we need politics to steer the way and really put nature at the forefront because we rely on nature for our lives, for our society, for infrastructures. I don't have a lot of hope for politics today, but I'm an optimist, so I'm growing that optimism every day.
Ted Roosevelt V:
Thomas Friedman once said, "it's so much more important to change your leaders than change your light bulbs." And I really took that to heart when I was younger and I worked with the League of Conservation Voters, which is a large NGO focused on climate and climate politics. And after about a decade of doing so, I came to the conclusion that politics is probably going to be a lagging indicator, that the politicians in this country are not likely to lead the way for us. I wonder how much of your approach is looking towards institutions to drive change versus staying personal and local?
Anne Therese Gennari:
Where the problem occurs is when people distance themselves from both the problem and what can be done about it, meaning I'm such a small citizen, it's up to politicians and I'm going to vote, but that's maybe about it. Or yes, United States is bad, but China's worse. That whole argument of like there's someone else with a bigger finger to point at and it's dangerous because we overlook our own ability to activate that change and to recognize that we are the system that we want to see changing. And to your point, I think the politics will follow because we will show the world what we're looking for, what we want. I don't believe that one person alone can change the world, but you can change your world. And when you step into your own world with curiosity and excitement and empowerment and agency and do whatever it's that you can do within your world---that will expand by the way, because they might feel like it starts out small, but it won't stop there. And when you really tap into that and step up with whatever you can muster, that's how you're changing the world.
Ted Roosevelt V:
What is it that you see when you look forward, and obviously in the context of climate, that you're particularly optimistic about?
Anne Therese Gennari:
The easy answer is people making extraordinary things. There's so many people who are passionate about figuring this out and working in their particular fields to create amazing stuff like new technology. We're using AI now to have a better understanding for what needs to get done and how to accelerate that. And so we have the technology, the science, the knowledge of how to take the five, ten first big steps. We can be on our way today. We don't have to figure that out. And that brings me optimism. I think something that we could do is just normalize climate conversations and say, I'm not pointing a finger. I'm not trying to shame you. I'm not telling you what to do. I'm just telling you we are living through a time of monumental change and it's about time that we recognize the way that we can participate in that.
And the tricky part about climate change is it's not--- there's not one thing to do to avoid or one thing to fight or to win over. There are all these millions of different things of small solutions to build upon each other to create a different world. And so that really comes down to my entire mission of climate optimism, which is that we have to shift the narrative on climate change so we can act from curiosity and excitement and in exploration of what can be better instead of trying to avoid something out of fear.
Ted Roosevelt V:
You have a climate meditation that you've put out there, 20 minute meditation. What is the role that mindfulness plays in all this for you?
Anne Therese Gennari:
It's a huge role, and I don't like to get too cushy about things, but I think we live in a world where we have accepted that the power of the mind is extraordinary. And so I did the meditation just to help guide people into a future that could be, and so we can spark that curiosity and even courage to take steps towards that. I gave a speech in Switzerland last year at a forum for law and economics professionals, and it was interesting and I was expecting a little bit of pushback because it's sort of like a very square system, like this is how it is and what will happen and what would not. And lo and behold, this older gentleman come over to me and said, this is all wonderful, but it's never going to happen. And I said, okay, so what are you proposing that we just don't try? And he said, no, no, no, of course not. And I'm like, okay, so we're in this moment in time, but there's nothing to lose and everything to win.
And then I said, okay, let me ask you a question. Do you think it will come down to some sort of spiritual upleveling? And he said, yes, absolutely. And so I think that is really the answer like, yes, we need the world around us to change, but that change will never fully happen until we change.
Ted Roosevelt V:
But that almost broadens the scope of the challenge a little bit. For me, climate change is an enormous challenge. And then when you're talking about a spiritual leveling up for humanity, that feels even bigger mountain to climb, although I totally agree with that thesis.
Anne Therese Gennari:
I mean, it's a bigger mountain to climb, but it's also more accessible because we can start with ourselves and we can start today after you finish listening to this podcast, just take 15 minutes to sit and just close your eyes and let your mind wander. It doesn't have to be big. It doesn't have to be, I'm going to go to Bali and sit quietly for three weeks. That's not what it's about. It's about integrating those moments of presence and mindfulness into our everyday lives and starting to ask questions. It really comes down to am I willing to question the way we live? Am I willing to question where I care about? Am I willing to really think a little deeper about the things that I do every day? I have a practice that I share in my book that's called Retracing, and it's just about redefining our truths that we live by subconsciously for the absolute most part. What do we do out of habit and why do we do those things? And so it really comes down to just getting to know ourselves better. Again, returning home to ourselves and recognizing that when we unlock this transformation from within ourselves, it is going to ripple effect that transformation in the world as well.
Ted Roosevelt V:
You used the term recoding. You have to go back and say, what are the sort of fundamental truths that I've told myself about myself, about the world that I'm willing to reexamine? And in doing so, you have to be willing to be comfortable with the fact that some sort of tent pole truths in your life may prove not true. And I think that's a really powerful thing for people to do, and it's a frightening thing for people to do, and they have to be kind of ready to do that. How do you create that space? How do you encourage people to be willing to reexamine themselves on that fundamental level?
Anne Therese Gennari:
Well, I would first recommend not to start there. You could start with smaller things just to get a little bit better about the notion of change and not being wrong. It really comes down to always looking for the next answer. And there's also psychology pointing to that. The more you've invested into knowing something, the harder it is to reexamine it. So if you went to law school for how many years is going to be really hard to change your identity. And so that's something to take into account as well is that the longer we have committed to this truth, it's going to get harder and deeper to dive or dig to find the core of who we want to be today. We have to start by nurturing an environment for ourselves out of self-love, and seeing ourselves as not a part of this ugly problem that we have created, but as a beautiful piece of this earth that deserves to find inner peace and love and happiness. And so for me, being an activist is really becoming the best, most happiest versions of ourselves that we can be because only then can we carve out the space to go deeper and ask those bigger questions. We're not going to do that out of self-hatred. So for me, it really starts with, again, returning home and tending to ourselves in the same way we would tend to our families and our communities. And knowing that when I am my most balanced, strongest, happiest self, I can make the most impact in the world.
Ted Roosevelt V:
I mean, I just absolutely love that. So you're traveling around, you've written a book, you're talking to folks, you're giving speeches, you're creating these spaces. It resonates deeply with me. How does it resonate with the people that you're talking to as you go on these travels and talk to different people?
Anne Therese Gennari:
It's always so encouraging that it resonates a lot. And my audience varies widely from teenagers dealing with climate anxiety to, like I said, law and economics professionals in Europe, or I'm talking to conferences with climate activists and the message is always the same: this is so simple, but I needed it so much. And I think it's the simplicity of it of what I'm trying to do with my work and with my book and my courses is help people recognize the human piece of all of it. The fact that we are human beings living through a climate changing world. What does it mean to be that human being? What's my place in it? And since I'm talking to the human in the room, they can all relate to it. And because at the end of the day, we're all the same. So it's been very well received and which is why I love doing what I do. But it's also challenging because everyone has different experiences and different backgrounds, but ultimately we want the same thing in the end, and that's what makes it possible.
Ted Roosevelt V:
Do you ever get a kind of viscerally negative reaction to your message or there people that sort of hear this and it sparks something negative in them?
Anne Therese Gennari:
I wouldn't say I've never gotten pushback, especially on, like, the message of optimism. I would say less and less because climate optimism has sort of become this new word. It's fantastic to me. Suddenly everyone's talking about climate optimism. But it was interesting--- just a couple of weeks after my book came out, there was an article and it said, climate optimism is dangerous and irrational, and my book was in the cover. And I'm like, great. My book just came out and now someone's pointing out that it's like BS, so to speak.
But I read the article and I'm like, they're missing the point. And they were really pointing to this passive way of optimism of let's just share some positive climate news. We can all feel good about where we're headed. That is not the point of climate optimism, and it doesn't empower you and it doesn't transform people.
And so it is, really, I call it being an optimist in action. You have to choose to wanting to participate in the changes that we want to see, and that is how you grow and nurture that climate optimism.
Ted Roosevelt V:
Anne Therese, thank you so much for being on with us. I have a sort of final very to widen the aperture type of question because I think it's something that's central to what you're doing is around being a good citizen. It's the name of the podcast, and I wonder if you have your own definition of what it is to be a good citizen in your mind.
Anne Therese Gennari:
For me, to be a good citizen is to recognize that this is a time for change and to be willing to not just accept that, but embrace it with everything we have. And it's not just about thinking about the generations that will come after us, but recognizing ourselves in that and do whatever we can to maximize our positive footprints and to expand our presence here on earth, both spiritually, but also in our communities. It's time to stop tapping out and stepping in and giving everything we have to this amazing journey forward.
Ted Roosevelt V:
I love that. Thank you very much for joining us today. I've really enjoyed this conversation. It went down a number of paths I had not anticipated, but all wonderful, insightful, thoughtful ones. So I really appreciate you taking the time with me today.
Anne Therese Gennari:
I'm so, so happy to have been here. Thank you so much, Ted.
Ted Roosevelt V:
Thank you Anne Therese for reminding us how truly powerful mindfulness and self-care can be. Listeners, her book, "The Climate Optimist Handbook," is available now, so please pick up a copy. And as always, thank you for listening and supporting the podcast. Good Citizen is produced by the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library in collaboration with the Future of StoryTelling and Charts & Leisure. You can learn more about TR's upcoming presidential library at trlibrary.com.