Liz Cheney
Liz Cheney shares the enthralling details from her book, Oath and Honor: A Memoir and a Warning, of defending the Constitution while inside the Capitol on January 6, 2021. The former Republican congresswoman from Wyoming consistently and fearlessly puts country over party.
Transcript
Liz Cheney (00:06):
I am not sure that the Republican party survives. I don't know post 24, if it's going to be an effort to rebuild the Republican party or if it's going to be necessary to build a new party. But certainly the party as it currently exists is not structured to be one that you can say it's defending the Constitution.
Ted Roosevelt (00:28):
Welcome to Good Citizen, a podcast from the Thedo Roosevelt Presidential Library's content studio. I'm Ted Roosevelt. Today I'm fortunate to bring you my discussion with Liz Cheney, former Chair of the House Republican Conference and author of Oath and Honor a memoir and a warning. Cheney paints a stark picture of a Republican party adrift, a party lacking the values it once championed. Congresswoman Cheney fearlessly challenges former President Trump for what she sees as his dangerous rhetoric and attempts to subvert the Constitution, and she strongly urges her Republican colleagues to uphold American founding principles even in the face of threats. Liz Cheney is inspiring for holding fast to her convictions and for consistently prioritizing country over party. Here is our conversation. Liz, I am so excited to have you on this podcast with us.
Liz Cheney (01:30):
Well, great to be with you. Thank you.
Ted Roosevelt (01:33):
I'm not exaggerating. This isn't hyperbole, but you were literally the top person that we wanted to talk to when we sat down and thought of the world of people to talk to. You were at the very top, and the reason was you have demonstrated a characteristic that is in sparse supply in politics today, and that's backbone.
Liz Cheney (01:53):
Well, you wish that there were more folks who viewed it as duty. I think when you get out of the Republican party, the view is a little bit different just in terms of looking at the folks who understand the threat that we face.
Ted Roosevelt (02:08):
Yeah. Well, in preparation for this interview, one of the things I wanted to do was there's a Theodore Roosevelt quote where he compares William McKinley's backbone to that of a chocolate of Claire. And before this interview I wanted to go back. I looked up the attribution and what I discovered was there's actually some debate about who said that. And the reason for the debate is the book your father and your mother wrote in 1983, Kings of the Hill cites Speaker Reed who had lost the nomination to William McKinley as having said it. And what struck me from that is I'm not really concerned about the attribution per se, but weak backbones is something that has existed in our political system for a long time. And two, your parents have been in this idea of a moral backbone for a politician for a long time. And that's kind of where I wanted to start this conversation because in your book Oath and Honor, you discuss the conversation that you had with your father, former vice President Dick Cheney on January 6th, and he calls you up to warn you that you're in danger after President Trump has cited you specifically in his speech.
Ted Roosevelt (03:23):
And I'd love to kind of take you back to that moment and hear you talk about that conversation, how you were feeling.
Liz Cheney (03:30):
Yeah. Well, I was in the cloak room, the Republican cloak room just off the floor of the house. And my dad called and the first thing that he said to me was, are you watching President Trump's speech? And I wasn't because I had been working on remarks that I was going to give during the debate about the electoral votes and explaining why it was unconstitutional for us to be objecting. And so I told my dad, I hadn't been watching it, and he said, well, Donald Trump just said we have to get rid of the Liz Cheneys of the world. We had had over the course of probably several weeks at that point, a real concern about what would happen on the sixth. You had this group of people, many of whom were coming because they'd been lied to by Donald Trump and they believed they could change the outcome of the election on the sixth.
Liz Cheney (04:19):
And my dad having heard the president say that was worried about my safety. We had a discussion about what that meant and whether I should go forward with my remarks that I was going to make on the floor of the house and decided that certainly I had to go forward with them, that there was no way that you could let that kind of threat of violence stop me from speaking. Of course, I didn't have a chance to give the remarks. By the time the debate got to that point, we had already been evacuated and I think that we become very numb to what a serious and grave thing it is to have a president of the United States threatening, encouraging, inciting violence against another branch of government. And of course, we know that when he had the opportunity for over three hours as he was watching the attack unfold, Trump refused to tell the mob to leave the capitol. It's a very important thing for our politics that we not become numb to that, that we remember how serious a threat he does pose.
Ted Roosevelt (05:21):
I think what's really interesting from citizens watching the political body, and you talk about this also in your book, but a lot of politicians have felt fear for their lives in terms of how they voted for Trump's impeachment. And it's easy to say, well, you have to do the right thing and stand up and move forward, but when you're talking about your own life, your safety, your political viability, it doesn't always break that way Too often it doesn't break that way. And what I am really curious about is why on January 6th you're talking your father who on the one hand he had been vice president before, he knows the importance of that moment of the certification, of the election, of the peaceful transfer of power. On the other hand, he's talking to his daughter, and I'm curious how seemingly easy or black and white that decision looked like for you versus so many others where it clearly is understandably a much more complicated decision in this political environment
Liz Cheney (06:26):
Dealing with threats of violence against people that you love is more difficult than, and I think it's the same with political attacks too is more difficult when you're the target of them yourself. And in the same way that I know my dad was worried about me, I also know that he was heartbroken for our country and heartbroken that we were going through this. We had instances where I had to tell one of my daughters, for example, to leave our house. I was in Washington and working and she was in Wyoming at our house and we had threats against us there. And so those are moments that are terrifying. As a parent, what we have seen too often among Republicans in the Congress and both the House and the Senate has been a willingness to yield to that. And one instance when we were working on the votes for impeachment and one of my Republican colleagues said to me specifically that he wanted to vote to impeach, but he was worried that it would bring a real threat to his daughter.
Liz Cheney (07:28):
I completely understand that, but I also think that means that you're in the wrong line of work if that affects how you conduct yourself. I also think that when you look at what Donald Trump is trying to accomplish, and you look at the historical examples that we have, and this threat of violence is a tactic that we see from autocrats that we see from would be authoritarians. And in order for them to succeed, they need their opponents to be silent. And we certainly undoubtedly have had periods of upheaval and violence in this country before. We've never had though that violence and those threats be incited and instigated by a president now by a former president that makes this threat very different and very dangerous.
Ted Roosevelt (08:18):
It's interesting you mentioned the people thinking about maybe a different line of work if you're not able to sort of stand up in these moments. When I was growing up the Republican party, one of the things that sort of maybe first came to mind was this idea of values, their sort of family values. It sort of depended on the era, but there was a very distinct rooting maybe in contrast to the Democratic party, but values and character were critical for their candidates. It seems like that's not as much the case today. Do you think that is and then why? And then second, what are the kind of core values that you think citizens should look for in their politicians?
Liz Cheney (08:57):
You certainly can't look back at this era of Trump and think that the Republican party is focused on values, and I think we've also abandoned substance in many ways when you're talking about the voters and how important the character is of the people that we elect. I think there we have to be able to know that we can trust our elected officials to put the Constitution first, that we can trust that our elected officials are going to behave in a way that's worthy of the sacrifices people have made over the course of the life of our nation in order that we could live in freedom. And it's really important for people to understand that politics shouldn't be this way and that politics can't be this way. In some cases it becomes very easy to say, well, politics is always a mess. And politicians are always dishonest or lacking in character.
Liz Cheney (09:54):
And certainly the politics in some ways is a reflection of a cross section of the nation and there are good people involved and there are not so good people involved. And I think it's important for people to recognize that although we have to do everything we can to ensure that we have a legal structure in place that protects our democratic republic, if you elect someone willing to blow through all of those guardrails, willing to torch the Constitution, then we can't protect ourselves, those institutions. It really matters that we have people of good character not just in the White House. Of course, that's the most important position. But what we learned in the lead up to January 6th then afterwards was that our institutions survived because of the individuals who protected them. That's something all voters have to keep in mind as they go into cast their votes.
Ted Roosevelt (10:48):
There's no question that we've gotten more partisan lately. And if I look back on say the Covid era, there's a period of time where I was sitting in my New York house thinking I'm making all my decisions based on facts and science, but when I go back and look at some of those decisions, there's no question that my own political identity was informing my decision making. And when you think about a national pandemic, there's this opportunity for the country to either kind of come together or break apart. And I think it's pretty clear that we fractured even more during that time period as a nation. And so owning my own sort of response in those moments too, I'm curious, what do you think our nation can use that will cause us to put country over politics again? It seems like there have been a pretty long secular trend towards increased partisanship.
Liz Cheney (11:44):
When you look back, you mentioned the pandemic, and I think that certainly that was a moment where people were at home, more people were online more. I think certainly there were foreign actors engaged in trying to sow divisiveness, conspiracy theories spread like wildfire. And I think that that mix contributed to a lot of toxicity As we go forward here, we all need to look at the extent to which we as a country, I think have sort of come right up to the edge and looked over into this abyss and understand and recognize that our words matter. I certainly throughout my career in public service and in politics have said things and been engaged in partisan battles. And I'm sure going back I said things in ways I wouldn't now. And I think that part of the challenge we face is that both sides can be so partisan and launch attacks against political opponents, including attacks like claiming that people are being unfaithful to the Constitution when they actually aren't.
Liz Cheney (12:53):
And I think both sides, both parties have contributed to that sort of the vilification of our political opponents. But I think there's a moment now where we all need to say, wait a second, this is not a path that we can go down. And it requires that those of us who have been in the Republican party be willing to say, wait a second, this is about something much greater, not about whether we can gain partisan advantage here. And I think that voters need to hold Republicans accountable for going along, for defending the indefensible, and I think that's going to be very important come November this year.
Ted Roosevelt (13:32):
I wonder how you think about that in contrast to you doing exactly that, standing up for the indefensible and then losing your seat in Congress. How do we shift the mindset of the voter so that in fact, people that do stand up against what's indefensible are rewarded politically right now? They seem to be punished politically.
Liz Cheney (13:53):
Yeah, it's really important. I mean, I knew, obviously given the makeup of the electorate in Wyoming, Donald Trump won a greater margin of victory there than any other state in the country. I knew that I was going to lose my seat and I made the decision that there was no congressional seat that was worth or could justify abandoning the Constitution. Partly right now at this moment, there's been so much focus and attention on the Republican primary electorate because obviously we're going through the primary process. I think it's important for people to recognize first of all that the stories, the descriptions of what's happening inside the party, they don't reflect the general electorate as a whole. Even though you see Donald Trump prevailing in these primaries, he's got a real problem with the percentage of Republican voters who won't vote for him. I think in New Hampshire it was over 30% who said they will never be for Trump. Voters are in fact looking at the kinds of behavior that they want to reward, the kinds of behavior that they know is dangerous to the republic. And while you can't deny that the Republican party itself, in my view is sick, and we have a lot of work to do, but when you look across the electorate as a whole, I think you do see the American voter recognizing and understanding what's at stake and understanding the kinds of people that we want to have representing us and serving us.
Ted Roosevelt (15:23):
I think you sort of framed this idea that if we can sort of deal with Trump, if the Republicans can deal with Trump or move past Trump, the Republican party will coalesce. And I wonder if there really is a center to the Republican party now that can hold.
Liz Cheney (15:40):
Look, I am not sure that the Republican party survives. I think that there was a moment in January of 2021 after the attack where the party actually was pretty unified. And if you go back and look at what people were saying publicly and a moment where it really felt like, okay, we can reject what Donald Trump has done and be clear that we aren't the party that embraces this and we can move forward, but that didn't last, and the leaders and many people in the party took a different path. There's a very small number of elected officials, elected Republicans, who actually believe what Trump is saying, very, very small in the house. You can probably count on one hand, there are many more people though who know what he's saying is wrong, who know he's dangerous, who've said publicly he's dangerous, but they're going along and accommodating, enabling, collaborating.
Liz Cheney (16:37):
And I believe those people have to be held to account by the voters as well, because what does Donald Trump need to succeed in his effort to subvert the Constitution? And he needs those enablers. And I think those people have to be held responsible and accountable at the polls. I don't know, post 24, if it's going to be an effort to rebuild the Republican party or if it's going to be necessary to build a new party. But certainly the party as it currently exists is not structured to be one that you can say it's defending the Constitution.
Ted Roosevelt (17:11):
I'm really intrigued by why you were able to hold a red line and say, all right, we've gone too far. We need to stand up at this point. And so many other politicians, politicians that candidly, I've known for a long time, I would have expected to stand up and have not why they seem to be so other than maybe just political expediency, so willing to kind of move the line past even safeguarding democracy or whatever. It's been moved past.
Liz Cheney (17:42):
First of all, you can look back at the Trump presidency and find moments where he did and said things that were deeply troubling when he stood next to Putin and Helsinki and said that he trusted Putin more than he trusted our own intelligence officials. Moments like that where I spoke out when he was taking steps that I thought were wrong and misguided, but there's no discussion in my view. There's no question in my view that once a president attempts to overturn an election, attempts to seize power, refuses to call off the armed mob that he's incited to attack the capitol, refuses to tell them to leave the Capitol. Once a president knowing that his own vice president had been evacuated for his own safety, sends out another tweet saying that Mike Pence is a coward, further inciting the mob no matter where people might've thought the line was before that, once you get to that point, there's no question.
Liz Cheney (18:44):
There's no debate anymore. And then when the Senate trial was delayed and then the Senators argued against conviction because he was out of office, which I think was wrong, I think the trial should have been held immediately. And I do not believe that there's some sort of January exception for high crimes and misdemeanors after which you can't be held accountable. But so many people who said to me, just ignore him. We all just need to ignore him on the Republican side because he'll go away. That was never true. And now you've got many of the people who said that and said much worse about him have endorsed him or apparently getting ready to endorse him. And so it's been a pretty shameful period for the Republican party over the last three years.
Ted Roosevelt (19:31):
Senator Flake wrote, I thought, a fairly moving op-ed in the Washington Post where he said that there's no greater offense in the Republican party than telling the truth. He goes on to describe the history of falsehoods in the Republican party starting with Obama's birth certificate and leading now to the sort of big lie. And I'm wondering if you feel that this sort of embrace of dangerous lies is something that's unique to the cult of Trump. It's sort of a part of his personality, or is it something more structural in our current political system right now that might persist even after he's gone?
Liz Cheney (20:04):
I think we're in a different order of magnitude. I mean, I think you can look back and certainly as somebody who was directly involved in presidential campaigns very closely, for example, in 2000 and 2004, there were many things that were said about my dad were said about George Bush that were lies that weren't true. But there's a difference between political criticism of an opponent, even the ones that I think really made me angry were just simply not true. And a president of the United States who is conducting an open assault on our election system, an open assault on the very foundations of our democracy, and certainly I think the continued assertions from Donald Trump that the 2020 election was stolen. But then we know for example, that he was told repeatedly by senior officials in his administration in real time that what he was saying was false. And I think most important parts of the Select committee's report is a chart that is in the executive summary, which actually lays out a timeline that shows Donald Trump was told this specific charge was false by his Deputy Attorney General on this day.
Liz Cheney (21:21):
And then the next day he made it again and again, page after page where you have the president of the United States telling the American people that the election had been stolen, that we couldn't count on the sanctity of our elections process lying about what had happened and using those lies to incite violence. And so I think this whole series of lies that all go back to this notion that somehow the election was stolen from Donald Trump have done huge damage. And now of course you combine that with a lie about Trump standing up and saying that he's a dissident, that he's somehow comparable to Alexia Navalny or that the January 6th criminals, the defendants, including many who pled guilty and others who were convicted, that somehow they're hostages. These are the kinds of lies that America's adversaries would tell about us. And to have an American president or former president doing it is a real threat.
Ted Roosevelt (22:22):
Well, there's no question. It's jarring times, and I very much appreciate your willingness, even if it may feel lonely at times to stand up to the indefensible as you put it. There are two questions we ask everybody and they're quick questions, but the first one is, what is an action that you would encourage our listeners to take at this point?
Liz Cheney (22:42):
Certainly committing to voting, not according to partisanship in this election cycle, but really understanding and recognizing that the constitution's on the ballot and voting that way, making sure to go vote. But also, I really hope the listeners will consider running for office themselves because going back to what we were saying earlier about we need the best people, we need good people, we have to incentivize good people. That means we need those candidates to run for office and we don't have enough good people running. So being involved, voting responsibly and considering running yourselves, I think is really important.
Ted Roosevelt (23:18):
That is great advice. What's an organization that you would like listeners to support?
Liz Cheney (23:23):
Well, I've started an organization called Great Task, great task.com, very focused in this election cycle on helping to make sure that we elect good candidates up and down the ticket, but also helping to educate people about the threat that Donald Trump poses and making sure that voters are informed when they go into vote. So I would encourage everybody to think about supporting the great task and also looking for other entities and organizations around the country that are really focused on making sure that we're defending our democracy. And there are plenty of really important ones that do that, and I think seeking those out is going to be a huge part of success come November.
Ted Roosevelt (24:03):
Liz, thank you very much for taking the time to chat with us today.
Liz Cheney (24:07):
Thank you, Ted. Great to be with you. I enjoyed it. Thank you.
Ted Roosevelt (24:13):
What a compelling and truly important conversation that was. Congresswoman Cheney, and I don't agree on a lot of the policy positions that she takes, but talking to her really brings to the fore and illuminates just how important character is for our politicians, that without it, the disagreements over policy really don't even matter. I hope you enjoyed the conversation as much as I did. We're grateful to have you as our listeners. If you enjoy these interviews, please rate and review the show and share it with a friend. Good Citizen is produced by the Theodore Roosevelt Presidential Library in collaboration with the future of storytelling and charts and leisure. You can learn more about TRS upcoming Presidential library@trlibrary.com.